Ahh, great great Kraucheks.

[krauchek]

Oh Fate.
Sorry for the face, but I just don’t understand what you are saying. In Christianity, aren’t we supposed to believe that we are here for a reason, and that God made everything happen so that you would be my grade 12 history teacher? Your diagram on the board of my great great Krauchek ancestry showed that if one of my ancestors had fallen off a cliff then I wouldn’t be here. Well isn’t that fate? The outcome, the chance, the possibility that it happened, was exactly how God wanted it to. For the wind, the sun and every other factor had to be just right in order for my ancestor to stay crawling upon the cliff.
I don’t know what you would call it if it wasn’t destiny. I’m here. God wanted me here. I’m calling it fate.

[Mr. Delainey]

Arguably, some people believe fate is built right into Christianity. But is it really? I know there are statements to the effect in the Torah that "God knew you when you were in the womb", etc.

One particular group of Christians (Calvinists) believe in fate, i.e. They believe in the concept of predestination. This means a person is either predestined by God to go to Hell or Heaven (no matter what this person does they cannot change their fate). I cannot personally reconcile the idea of a God of justice who allows people to born only to destine that they spend eternity in Hellfire. And what does predestination mean for grace? Why sacrifice His Son (Jesus) if that person was destined for hell and that person for heaven? What would be the point of saving humankind, well, if you didn't save humankind or save the world?

Jesus was sacrificed (some theologians argue) on the cross to appease God's justice or (as some other theologians argue) as a sacrifice. Jesus bore the brunt of God's anger towards us for our sinfulness. And once Jesus rose from the dead and God's justice was satisfied, grace was extended to us; that is, I am saved not because I deserve it or because of any act on my part but because I confess Jesus as lord. I am free to confess Jesus as lord and I am free not to. And this is why Jesus commanded the apostles to go out and spread the Gospel to the peoples of the world (found in the Gospel of Mark): he wanted the apostles to spread knowledge of him so that people could accept him as lord and understand this thing called grace.

If you believe in predestination I would call you a believer in fate. Predestination is a complete contradiction of grace, though. So if you believe you're saved by the grace of God it is difficult to hold at the same time that people (despite of grace) are predestined to hell.

But grow in the grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (II Pet. 3:18).

Peter says you grow in grace, it's not some final product; it is a process and the outcome is not that certain. Instead, you have trust and hope in the lord that you'll be saved. Predestination (or fate if you will) smacks of a sort of legalism forcing God to act in specific ways. I don't think God is bound by fate anymore than I am.

Take a couple additional passages from Paul's Letter to the Romans:

"The power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes . . . ""
(Romans 1:16).

"If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." (Romans 10:9, 10).

According to Paul we are justified by our faith and not by acts; that is, if I confess 'Jesus as Lord" and believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead I am saved by God's grace. But if I am fated for hell no amount of confessing or contrition on my part can help. God's grace cannot extend to me.

In this respect, I do not believe fate exists.

Hmmm, I wonder does God "fate" Hindu people to be Hindu? Because, arguably, if you don't confess Jesus as lord you cannot be saved. So all these people fated to be Hindus are d**ned...or am I Canadian, Christian, white, etc. by a sort of Cosmic accident?

I think we tend to believe in belief. You might believe in fate but does that make fate exist? Yes and no. Yes, in that, by believing in fate you might act in specific ways, i.e. The Boogie Man example I gave. The Boogie Man doesn't exist. Yet, my belief in him definitely influenced my actions so long as I believed in it, didn't it?

But I'd argue no-fate-exists, in that, I cannot reconcile this with a just God capable of being flexible and understanding. A fated world would be one in which absolutely everything is determined.

Thanks for the thoughtful thread. I've likewise spoken about this in Francine's thread. Feel free to take a gander.

P.S. Where does fate begin and end? Was the gum wrapper that fell out of my pocket fated to fall at precisely that moment and place? What about all the air molecules that had to move as the wrapper fell...were these likewise fated? What I'm saying is when you think about how many micro-events take place that it becomes almost silly to think fate is operative. Instead, you see a bunch of micro-events that may or may not happen that lead to macro-consequences that may or may not happen.

I'll simplify what I just said: if I drop a gum wrapper and I trip someone then that someone somehow falls into the street forcing a car to turn into me and then killing me....was that fate? The problem I have with this idea of fate is it makes no predictions (there's no power of foresight). There is only hindsight and making "things" fit by looking for patterns in otherwise disconnected events.

WoRD.